FAO Martin Chandler - Wedinos

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by TinyTim, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. TinyTim

    TinyTim Elite Member

    Great post re Wedinos in the PED area Martin.

    So as not to derail that particular thread, I thought I'd ask here how you see the future of performance drug testing, availability and legality panning out.

    Now, obviously that requires an element of crystal ball manipulation, but I guess we can look at certain facts and consider them, then see where it might lead.

    1) PEDS are here to stay, or, at least, solutions and pills purporting to be PEDs are. All the powders in the universe could disappear but there would still be concoctions on sale purporting to be the real deal. With that must come an ongoing need for testing.

    2) Wedinos reports only on drugs present and not on purity and dose strengths due to budgetary concerns. Do you see a time when an alternative provider might offer more - at a price? I understand that working out doses etc is probably not in the NHSs best interests.

    3) The biggie - what can people do to protect themselves against harm? Obviously other countries clamped down hard and drove the entire problem completely underground, leading to many reports of contamination and plain bogus materials. Last I read, the panel advising the UK Government was satisfied that PEDs were in the correct category. What would it take for this to change and PEDs to move to, say, class B? And in moving to class B, if so, would this reduce harm, which is the main point this nannying is dressed up as?

    Thanks for your time - a broad question but one that might lead to an interesting thread.
     
    Kratos and Incognito like this.
  2. Martin Chandler

    Martin Chandler Senior Member

    Hi - ok ...that's a big question! I'll try and answer it though...but lilke you say - there's some crystal ball manipulation in there!

    1) PEDS are here to stay, or, at least, solutions and pills purporting to be PEDs are. All the powders in the universe could disappear but there would still be concoctions on sale purporting to be the real deal. With that must come an ongoing need for testing.

    You'd think so...in an intelligent world. Sadly that's not the world we live in....

    2) Wedinos reports only on drugs present and not on purity and dose strengths due to budgetary concerns. Do you see a time when an alternative provider might offer more - at a price? I understand that working out doses etc is probably not in the NHSs best interests.

    ..and the reason we don't live in that world is media scare-mongering and politics. You tell people things are bad for years - it becomes very difficult to then tell them teh opposite; especially if you're a politician. So - whilst the Wedinos website managed to claw it's way into existence...a more advanced service would have even more people shouting about it "promoting drug use".  

    You would also still have the issue that you only have specific vials/ampoules tested. So...let's imagine that someone makes up two batches of gear; one is for them and people they know well, properly dosed. The other is for more general sale and is underdosed or contains a cheaper product. The good stuff gets sent for testing and the results then get used to promote the lab (the lab promoting thing has already happened at least once - i'm not suggesting they sent in special samples though). The bottom line will always be - you do not know whether the product you hold in your hand is teh same as the identical looking one on teh website. SOme pharma products are so well faked the pharma reps can't identify them. Or they can - because the packaging is actually better than theirs! (Been a few cases of that with Schering products allegedly).

    So no, I don't think that will happen and to be honest, i'm not sure it would be worth much more if it did. Unless people get genuine pharma gear via some legitimate, controlled market, for self directed use - you will always have the above problem. And if they are getting it that way - you don't need testing.

    3) The biggie - what can people do to protect themselves against harm?

    1. Be realistic - you are taking illicitly sourced drugs of unknown content and provenance. Your own supplier may be a completely stand up guy, but that doesn't mean everyone else in the chain from raw production to end product is.

    2. Remember these drugs are powerful - you may not need as much as you think you do - ultimately the key thing is diet and training...focus on those - gear is just another supplement.

    3. Take adequate time off - your body doesn't like being thrown out of homeostasis for long periods of time and it will fight hard against it. You literally have no chance whatsoever of defeating your body in teh long run...it doesn't matter what chemicals you use or in what combination - if your body wants to do stuff,..it will. Sometimes that reaction will cause you severe problems. Time off allows some balance to return. We take rest time from traiing to 4. allow our bodies to grow - why would any other system be any different?

    4. Keep it simple - there is no need to take multiple drugs in complex cycles - you can achieve your results with just a couple of compounds. The more different drugs you use simultaneously; the greater the chance for issues to arise.

    That would be my advice generally :)

    Obviously other countries clamped down hard and drove the entire problem completely underground, leading to many reports of contamination and plain bogus materials. Last I read, the panel advising the UK Government was satisfied that PEDs were in the correct category. What would it take for this to change and PEDs to move to, say, class B? And in moving to class B, if so, would this reduce harm, which is the main point this nannying is dressed up as?

    Tricky one -  in terms of moving to a different class - a key thing will be media portrayal...the more people suffer serious adverse effects that can be directly attributed to their steroid use (for instance), the more likely we are to see horrific headlines. Equally - the more younger people use (especially openly), the more likely we are to see those headlines and the more likely it is that the government will have a knee-jerk response..."being seen to do something".

    Would it reduce harm? No - not at all. I have yet to meet anyone who willingly and knowingly uses drugs of any kind that is in any way bothered by what class the drugs are. The thing that will reduce harm is the availability of legitimate products, quality controlled and available with sensible advice. Are we likely to see that with steroids? Probably not - there are too many issues for them to overcome to implement that I think. PLus it opens the door to a raft of other debates that will be more led by the Daily Fail than any coherent, sensible, evidence-led argument.

    Currently this is not a big issue with the government..but that may change.
     
  3. TinyTim

    TinyTim Elite Member

    Great post there Martin.

    Thanks for taking the time.

    The bit that stand outs for me is that harm reduction could be more effective with a channel to pharma compounds - same as any drug market, I guess. Probability of that happening - close to zero, sadly.

    I would have liked to see a paid for service where I could elect to have any compound I may have tested, at my expense, and pertinent only to my sample, particularly for heavy metal or bacterial contamination.

    I wonder what will happen as and when (or if) the Chinese raw market stops/is stopped. Who starts up then and at what additional risk to the end user?
     
  4. Pip

    Pip Elite Member

    Thing with that Righty is where does it end?

    People sending in a scratch before they buy 50kg of brown?

    If Chna was to be wiped off the face of the Earth it would be the best thing to happen to the PED market IMO.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2014
    Ronnie_Malenko likes this.
  5. Martin Chandler

    Martin Chandler Senior Member

    Like it or not - CHina is currently a true superpower in every possible sense. They can undercut just about any manufacturer of anything and they now have suppliers (of just abotu anything) that can produce goods to a very high standard.

    Whether that always applies is of course........open to debate. There are definitely dodgy companies there, as there are everywhere.

    You can get your own stuff tested at plenty of places; but it's not cheap. Especially not for heavy metals and bacterial contamination as well. But if you think abou it; you are legally allowed to possess AAS and there are no legal ramifications to getting it tested. So as long as you have the money, there are labs that will do it.

    However - if China stops doing it...someone else will step in; probably several someones. My money would be on India, Pakistan, Egypt, perhaps a SOuth East Asian country and likely some (former) Eastern Block countries.

    None of which would be any better....I suspect most would actually be worse.
     
  6. Pip

    Pip Elite Member

    Anyone who knowingly poisons their own baby formula as a method of population control cannot be trusted with even handling toilet paper.

    I have a mate out there. They make the raws in the same place they make industrial chemicals and the next building is a sewage plant where they get their water from.

    One week they will be making dye the other it will methandrostenolone

    I will stick to Poland,Slovakia or India thanks.
     
  7. Arterial Dan

    Arterial Dan Administrator Staff Member

    Gutter Oil:

     
  8. Pip

    Pip Elite Member

    Right there is residual Pro Chem reserves
     
    Ethan8, Incognito and Arterial Dan like this.
  9. pscarb

    pscarb Senior Member

    thing is where do you think the pharma labs get there raws from? i would guess not all of them produce there own from scratch although i could be wrong, i once read a paper that claimed all raws originally came out of china
     
  10. Clubber Lang

    Clubber Lang Elite Member

    lol
     
  11. Pip

    Pip Elite Member

    One would hope that these guys are however testing the batches for purity and heavy metals etc instead of taking the suppliers word.
     
  12. pscarb

    pscarb Senior Member

    Agreed and you also would think they would have better overall standards but it does make you think
     
    Arterial Dan likes this.
  13. Martin Chandler

    Martin Chandler Senior Member

    The key difference with pharma is the Good Manufacturing Practices (GMP) that they are required to sign up to. Pharma stuff is controlled down to the very finest detail. A mate of mine works for Schering as a designer and it took him nearly a year to get agreement to get a cyrillic font so he could design labels for products aimed at Slavic countries. You can guarantee that every batch is properly tested, the volumes are identical, teh labels identical, teh dose strength consistent, they are sterile etc etc. That would include testign raws.

    Yes, absolutely - there are plenty of chinese labs that are unscrupulous and lax in their esting (very few Chinese labs sign up to GMP) so yes there are plenty that are turning out product that is at best highly suspect. But not all of them. China has positioned itself where it is by having large companies, including bio-tech, with an enviable reputation for quality and (relatively) low cost. Largely because the human element (frequently the most expensive bit of any manufacturing process) is much cheaper by virtue of sheer weight of numbers vs low wages. ie: More people doing teh job for teh same amount of money overall = more efficient overall.

    COmparing the worst china has to offer against the best from India or Eastern Block isn't a fair comparison - compare like for like and there's little difference. Basically - you can find very dodgy companies in all of these countries. You can also find very good ones - there's just more of them in China because they are further along teh road of developing that and they have greater resources, especially skilled human resources. Certainly more so than India for instance.

    I would absolutely agree that stuff coming out of China should be viewed with caution - but that means pretty much every UGL steroid, most of your peptides (espcially melanotan II) and possible quite a lot of your generic ancilliaries, although India has a large slice of the generic market.
     
  14. SteamroD

    SteamroD Elite Member

    Justa pity nothing is coming outof india atm as the fda closed it down a couple months ago.
     
  15. Martin Chandler

    Martin Chandler Senior Member

    They closed down all of India??